LTM: Would you say that the homework in this area has now been done?
Gebhardt: No, the homework is never done, that would be boring. We still have a lot to do, especially with Galileo, and we don't want to lose sight of our core business, the automated warehouse.

LTM: Of course we are talking about a process that can never be completed per se, I agree with you ...
Gebhardt: We have done some homework and think that it has turned out quite well.

LTM: You don't seem dissatisfied with the development ...
Gebhardt: To be satisfied would mean slowing down(smiles). We are trying to integrate the innovative elements ever more deeply into our core business, because only there will they bring maximum customer benefit.

LTM: Last October, you won the "Entrepreneur Of The Year" award in the Digital Transformation category - what impact did the win have?
Gebhardt: There were a few mentions in the press, which was good. I don't want to claim the award for myself alone, it was confirmation of the good work of the whole team. I was just the one who received the award. I am particularly pleased that our company was by far the smallest to receive the award.

LTM: Jeff Bezos didn't get in touch?
Gebhardt: No, but I had a good chat with Cem Özdemir about soccer, that's something too (smiles).

LTM: You just mentioned the team. How do you organize the digital transformation in your company? Simply declaring it a "matter for the boss" is probably not enough, is it?
Gebhardt: The topic is a matter for the boss, of course, but everyone can get involved: Design, service, sales and logistics, but also accounting and controlling. The ideas must arise from day-to-day business and then flow quickly into the products. The corporate culture must support and encourage this.

LTM: Do you implement the process with working groups or with "representatives" for digitalization?
Gebhardt: There are no working groups or a classic hierarchical set-up. I don't want to operate silo optimization according to the motto: one person is particularly digital at the expense of another. Digitalization is our daily business. Everyone has to ask themselves whether a new product or an established process meets the requirements of an increasingly digitalized world. For the super-innovative topics, we also have our start-ups, which can develop in peace away from day-to-day business. It is important to me that the projects we undertake make progress. I'm right behind them.

LTM: How are you taking employees with you on this journey?
Gebhardt: We are trying to allay employees' fears, because digitalization is not happening with the aim of cutting jobs. On the contrary: it is intended to secure jobs, because I am convinced that things will no longer work the way they did ten years ago. There are always reservations, especially in more traditional areas such as production. I try to explain why it is important to address the issue and be present. The phrase "We've always done it this way" comes up from time to time and then I reply: "Then we'll do it differently now and you can say in ten years' time: we've always done it this way. But not the way we've done it for thirty years."(smiles)

LTM: Is digitalization also your personal hobbyhorse or is your commitment in this area purely a business necessity?
Gebhardt: Definitely an entrepreneurial necessity. I'm not pursuing a hobby here, but I have an affinity for the topic. I want to provide impetus. Even I sometimes become blind to the company and it is often enough our employees who drive ideas forward. There is a permeability here in the company and nobody has to be afraid of the boss. It makes no sense to encourage employees to innovate if they then get a slap on the wrist from the boss.

LTM: The politician Cem Özdemir commented on your award as "Entrepreneur Of The Year" with: "Of course the award winner comes from the Ländle - where else?" Do you agree?
Gebhardt: It's not Berlin, that's for sure. The environment here is definitely not bad, the company has long-standing and loyal employees who know what they are doing. We have good universities nearby in Karlsruhe, Mannheim and Heilbronn, and the TU Kaiserslautern is not far away either. That is an advantage.

LTM: Large companies such as SAP are located in the immediate vicinity of your company - do the opportunities of cooperating with the "big players" outweigh the risk of employees leaving?
Gebhardt: It is generally difficult to find employees in STEM professions. However, this is not only due to the technology-oriented corporations; a large discounter nearby is also very active, for example, and needs employees for its e-commerce business that we could also use. Sometimes you wish you were working in an area where there is no alternative within 100 kilometers (laughs).
But that also has its disadvantages. Nevertheless, we are dependent on collaborations, such as in the Open Industry 4.0 Alliance, and actively seek out these opportunities. That is also a fundamental idea of Industry 4.0. Even a company cannot do it alone.

LTM: You called digitalization "a key to sustainable growth and an attractive working environment for your employees". You'll have to explain the latter point to me ...
Gebhardt: I prefer to work with modern tools rather than old systems. A 3D CAD program at the workplace is more exciting and sustainable compared to paper drawings. That's what I mean. My father started cutting out the old habits and now we're doing it together. That was crucial to the fact that we still exist and that we were able to grow so dynamically.

LTM: Sounds dramatic ...
Gebhardt: Sounds dramatic, but it's true. I'm always afraid of being left behind - and that's what drives me.

LTM: What are the limits for a medium-sized company when it comes to digitalization? What can't you manage? Or do the limits lie elsewhere, not just in terms of budgets?
Gebhardt: On the one hand, we are very dependent on our suppliers, who have to go along for the ride, and on the other hand, there are products to buy in order to go down this path. We develop a lot ourselves, but certain foundations, such as a cloud platform, have to be developed by a group. We wouldn't have been able to do that ourselves. The availability of talented employees remains the biggest problem. Not the budget, because we can sometimes do without a few percent margin if a development is important to us.

LTM: When talking about intralogistics, the question often arises as to how long people will still be working in warehouses. What do you think?
Gebhardt: If you look at warehouses today, most of them are not automated. So there will initially be an intermediate step of partial automation, for example with co-bots like our GridPick. Then there will be a need for automation that involves people. The human plus machine phase will continue for at least another ten to fifteen years. I don't see anything else at the moment. Even if people are no longer picking, they still have to supervise and maintain the system. Given the diversity of warehouses, I can't imagine that robots will soon take over completely. And at the end of the day, any automation has to pay off.

LTM: The Gebhardt Intralogistics Group welcomes visitors to your company's website and the imprint refers to Gebhardt Fördertechnik GmbH - is this a symbol of the change in the industry, away from individual products and towards solutions?
Gebhardt: On the one hand, this was due to Gebhardt's entry into warehouse technology twelve years ago and, on the other, due to internationalization. Americans are rather bad at pronouncing the word conveyor technology(smiles). The "Group" is due to the fact that there are now several subsidiaries around Gebhardt. We now see ourselves as a
group.

LTM: Despite the focus on "solutions", you also sell a lot of "products". How do you manage the balancing act?
Gebhardt: Our greatest effort is to try to ensure that all our solutions consist of modular products. If someone only wants to buy individual products from us, I have nothing against it, quite the opposite. To sell solutions, you need a lot of employees to take care of the control system, software, construction site and so on. In other words, those who are in short supply. We continue to work with two pillars.

LTM: What is more important for sales? The sale of solutions or products?
Gebhardt: Solutions now account for over 60 percent of sales, which was different ten years ago when the product business dominated. With the development towards solutions, we began to build up a wide range of expertise in many of the necessary areas. That was and is a major challenge and has fundamentally transformed the company.

LTM: Let's talk about your company - what turnover are you aiming for in 2019, what turnover for, say, 2024?
Gebhardt: We should reach a turnover of 100 million euros this year, plus or minus ten percent. We have grown continuously for years and don't want to forget about consolidation.

LTM: How and where do you want to expand in the future?
Gebhardt: In 2019, the focus will be on the USA and Scandinavia. In 2020, we will then introduce new products that will open up areas in which we have not previously been active. Of course, it's difficult for me to make a forecast for 2024, but I would like to see us grow by between five and ten percent per year by then. We would be quite happy with that.

LTM: In recent years, many medium-sized intralogistics companies have been bought up by large corporations. When will it be the Gebhardt Intralogistics Group's turn?
Gebhardt: You can never rule it out, but I don't see any reason for it at the moment. We promise our customers that we are a reliable family business, so a sale would not be fair. Nor would it be fair to our employees, who have often made a conscious decision to work for a family business. And as far as the development of new products and technologies is concerned, we are freer as we are than in a group where margins rule a lot. I think a sale would fundamentally change our corporate culture and sooner or later call into question what makes us what we are.

LTM: What would be so bad about it? What needs to be preserved?
Gebhardt: Our corporate culture has evolved over more than 60 years, our focus is on the customer, we want to be a technical leader and yet remain a friendly and sincere family business. Together with our employees and customers, I believe that our journey is far from over.

LTM: Do you want to make acquisitions?
Gebhardt: Prices are currently very high. We will always look at smaller additions to the portfolio if the opportunity arises, but not larger acquisitions. But I would definitely enjoy two or three more start-ups. As a small fish, we want to swim faster than the "big ones" and if another small fish wants to swim with us in the shoal, it is very welcome.

LTM: As "Entrepreneur of the Year", you can now give the industry a testimonial at the end of the interview, naturally in the field of digitalization. What is it like?
Gebhardt: Intralogistics has always been more digital than other sectors and was an early adopter of topics such as software and RFID. I don't believe in selling old tricks as Industry 4.0. A warehouse management system alone is not Industry 4.0, it has almost always existed(smiles). Logistics is very digital, now robots, artificial intelligence and predictive maintenance are coming. The industry is on the right track, including mechanical engineering. As far as our company is concerned, we try not to deal with rehashed topics just so that we look modern. Nobody is completely free of buzzwords, but we don't want to make old products look "new". So in certificate language, it would be a "good" on the way to "very good".

LTM: Thank you very much for the interview.

The interview with Marco Gebhardt took place at the company's headquarters in Sinsheim at the end of April.